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WOODBINE'S SCULPTURE (3rd sonnet attempt) [meter workshop] - scribbler

By Barbara Writes, 8 March, 2012

Status

Program description/goal

Program description/goal:

Description: Grasping basic METER in poetry and verse

Leader: Barbara Writes
Moderator(s): Jess Tapper, Wesley Snow

Objectives: Write a short poem using IAMBIC PENTAMETER in English poetry.
In the end, absolute beginners should be more adept with METER in poetry and verse.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: What is METER, IAMBIC, TROCHAIC, and PENTAMETER?

Meter: is a Greek word meaning measure, thus meter is premeasured patterns of stressed and unstressed syllables.
Iambic: is a foot containing an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable
Trochaic: is opposite of iambic a foot containing an stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable
Pentameter: is five feet per line

Example of one line IAMBIC PENTAMER unstressed syllables are in lowercase and the stressed syllables in all caps.

When I | con SID | er HOW | my LIFE | is SPENT
The METER of the line is iambic pentameter because it has five feet in the line and is opposite of one line TROCHAIC PENTAMETER:
The stressed syllables are in all caps and the unstressed syllables in lowercase.

BOOTH led | BOLDly | WITH his | BIG bass | DRUMing
the meter of the line is trochaic because it contains trochaic feet consisting of a stressed syllable followeed by an unstressed syllable. But the final foot of each line is incomplete, having only a stressed syllable.

Reference sites: http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/xmeter.html
http://www.creative-writing-now.com/poetry-meter.html
http://www.types-of-poetry.org.uk/89-trochee-literary-term.htm
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/looking-at-rhythm-and-meter-in-po…

We will start the discussion with difinition and explanation of METER, IAMBIC PENTAMETER.

Length

30.00 days

Number of participants (limit)

10.00 people

Participants

Skill level

Date

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 12:00 - Friday, April 20, 2012 - 12:00

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13 years 3 months ago

Its a great day to write poetry with meter

Its a great day to write poetry with meter

To begin the discussion, I'll start by saying. Meter is a Greek word meaning to measure
and Iambic is a foot containing an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable

When writing poetry with meter we measure how many iambic or foot one line of poetry has.
For example:

Lets use one of Christopher Marlowe's line from Dr. Faustus.

" Was this the face that launched a thousand ships"
duh-DUH-duh-DUH-duh-DUH-duh-DUH-duh-DUH

Now count the duh-DUHs. How many meter or feet do you hear?
Yes, there are five feet of meter in this line (thus called iambic pentameter)

Notice too this line has five unstressed syllables (lowercase) alternating with five stressed sylllable (all caps) which are sung by the five duh-DUHs.

The more poetry you read the more you will start to recognize feet and meters.

13 years 3 months ago

meters is tortures but so is life

An iambic pentameter poem I wrote for this workshop. Not that good, but it has five iambic meters, ten syllables, of unstressed alternating stressed feet of meter.

Come on people join I know you're still basking in the awesome fun of imagery. Now lets have fun with meters.

justice for all

there is no justice for all in this life
injustice for lowly having no rights
highly esteemed goes free with thievery
while I take the lost of my ipad two

I located my ipad just as told
but, I knew their'd be no justice for me
as they live the rich life in their brick home
me not so much, my double wide trailer

Now I've seen the faces of injustice
frowning on low ones trying to get by
living on crumbs left by the wealthier
charging their sins off on the innocent

I'll never forget my stolen ipad
as I think on the third generation
but, for now I love my kindle fire
it challenges my techno geekiness

I'll give Amazon my wants and ideas
to make the Kindle my new companion
no more desk top station or laptop days
I'll just run the race on my kindle fire

S

13 years 3 months ago

Hi Barb

I am going to try my best to make time for this...........stan

13 years 3 months ago

Stan

Glad to have you join.
I know your plate is full right now with fnalizing the imagery workshop, so thanks for taking time to support my 2nd workshop

13 years 3 months ago

first exercise

The first exercise will be to write a one line iambic pentameter and trochee tetrameter

For example:
Iambic pentameter 5 Iambic 10 syllables
He sowed|his seed|of life| and she|gave birth

Trochee tetrameter 4 Trochee 8 syllables
Ask not|for words|you hate|to hear

I'm not the expert here, I'm learning as I go
Any points I missed moderators

13 years 3 months ago

I always have...

trouble remembering which one is which, but I suspect that after this workshop, I will remember them better.
Sounds like a fun workshop, I'm in! ~ Gee

13 years 3 months ago

yes i feel you will

Preparing for this workshop is helping me to understand them better myself.
- We can start with five basic meters- 1-iambs,
2-trochees, 3-spondees, 4-anapests and 5-dactyl

I think understanding the differences in these five is a good place to start.

13 years 3 months ago

basic differences

iambs, trochees, and spondees, have 2 syllable feet
Black cat- 2 syllable 1 feet.

anapests and dacryl have 3 syllable feet
Black cat ran- 3 syllable 1 feet

One way that help me remember

13 years 3 months ago

feet per line

Lets say you want only 5 feet in your poem.
It would then become a pentameter meaning 5 meter.

lets use the iambic meter- 2 syllable feet

Lonesome | black cat | startles | crying | baby

See we have 5 iambics 2 syllable feet a piece, but a total of 10 syllables in all for the entire line. Because it has five iambic feet it is called a pentameter

Confusing for sure

corny me, it works for illustrating.

13 years 2 months ago

barbara - can i add my two bob's worth?

LONEsome | BLACK cat | STARTles | CRYing | BAby
- this is actually trochiac

a LONE - / some CAT / has START- / led CRY- / ing BABE
- iambic

hope this helps
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

of couse you can

I totally agree misprint.
Iambic and trochaic differences can be confusing then my eyes play tricks on me when i write sometimes. ;-)

13 years 3 months ago

any confusing questions

Just ask, ill attempt to break it down in an easy illustration.

13 years 3 months ago

Hi Barbara

This sounds TOTALLY out of my league
and I will probably crash and burn...
but if you are willing to TRY to teach me
I am willing to TRY to learn.

As I have said many times I have absolutely no Literature or Poetry education except for a very basic college course in Creative Writing. My education is in Nursing. I will start by hitting your list of reference sites and see what I can see there. Maybe I won't make an utter fool of myself...LOL
Thanks, Deb

13 years 3 months ago

hey Deb

Glad to have you join.
Ill add you. The reference link are good to get you in the mind set. I have no education in this area either. So I'm still learning.
See if you can come up with just one line of a poem. Post here and we will count the meter together and point out which it is iambic, trochee, pentameter or something else.

Un

S

13 years 3 months ago

Hi Barb

Identifying difference between iambic and trochee and using them is not the hard part for me.Iambic= 1st syllable unstressed, Trochaic= 1st syllable stressed. What's going to give me fits here will be using an assigned meter while trying to maintain a natural sounding flow. I'll get something posted tomorrow.............stan

13 years 3 months ago

Stan

I reaslize some here will be more advance than some. So I think I'll respond to each individually that way wherever you are in meter understanding is where I. Will help.
okay, just post one line iambic and one line trochee.
Between 1 and 10 syllables and we will count the meters and see which it is, then narrow it down to iambic pentameter or trochee pentameter.
Then I show you how I make it natural for the next lines in the poem. For which ever one iambic or trochee for your poem beginnings

We can do this together once you posted.

S

13 years 3 months ago

Here goes

Why must I look about in silent rage
Fools! my words scream from pen to page

why MUST i LOOK abOUT in SIlent rage--iambic pentameter
FOOLS, my WORDS scream FROM pen TO page-----trochaic......can't remember phrase for 4 feet lol

13 years 2 months ago

i can't help myself

sorry - i know i'm not part of this group
but i can't stop my itchy fingers commenting here

your trochaic stan
FOOLS my WORDS SCREAM from PEN to PAGE - not quite it...
- FOOLS my WORDS all SCREAM from PEN to PAGE
XXX

S

13 years 2 months ago

hey Judy

Why not join in? I expect Barb would be pleased to have you

13 years 2 months ago

i think i'm a bit late to join

it would be fun though xx

13 years 2 months ago

judy

It not too late to join
Come on aboard

13 years 2 months ago

excellent

i'm off to work now
will catch up with you later today to find out what i need to do
xx

13 years 2 months ago

okay

Pm me toy request I'll add you on.

13 years 3 months ago

Stan

Great. You have here 2 syllable Iambic meter- 10 syllables for entire line and 5 feet pentemeter
why MUST| i LOOK |abOUT| in SI|lent rage
-----iambic pentameter
FOOLS, my |WORDS scream |FROM pen| TO page
-----trochaic tetrameter
Now the hard, part writing a four line stanza from the one line you choose pentameter or trochee

S

13 years 3 months ago

Hi

Do I need to maintain pentameter?

13 years 3 months ago

yes

All four verses are to flow well in pentemeter. I find it easy to write when I sing it as I write.

13 years 3 months ago

Here I am.

Once up/on a /time and /far a/way, kids (trochaic pentameter)

there lived /a band /of po/ets coun/ting toes. (iambic pentameter)

Nobody/ knows how much/ time they spent, (dactylic trimeter)

Unretur/ning is time /with one's toe/ses and feet. (anapestic tetrameter)

In poetry the study of rhythmic structure is known as prosody. In literature more generally the term is used in a much broader sense. I read somewhere (don't ask, I can't remember) some 95% of English poetry is written in iamb. I haven't a clue as to why, but even to boneheads like me it does seem to be naturally easier to use than the other three meters above. It's almost as though it's embedded in our DNA.

Poe's "The Raven" and Longfellow's "The song of Hiawatha" are both written in trochee.

For anapest (also spelled anapaest) look to "The Night Before Christmas". It has been used more extensively for "light poetry" or whimsy.

Robert Browning's "The Lost Leader" and Longfellows "Evangeline" are dactyl with Evangeline using hexameter (or six poetic feet to the line).

wesley

13 years 3 months ago

hey Wesley

I appreciate your knowledge of Meter

Once u |pon a |time and |far a l way,
maybe-
Once u |pon a |time and |too far |away,
kids (trochaic pentameter)
Trochee has 2 syllables in each meter. Your last meter should have 2 syllable only. I added (too) to show how it maybe read. though it is done that way by some poets. I did it this way to emphasize each meter seperately.

there lived|a band|of poets|counting|bent toes.
Iambics is same as Trochee having 2 syllable in each meter. I added (bent) here, again to show 2 syllables.
(iambic pentameter)
...........

Nobody|knows how much|time they spent,
(dactylic trimeter)
Great!! all 3 dactylic has 3 syllables.
..........

Unreturn|ing is time|with one's toes|es and feet.
(anapestic tetrameter
another great one. 4 anapestic with 3 syllables in each meter
toeses lol it works.
..........
I broke it down this way to make it easy to explain. Using the slash(/) is fine.
I corrected your syllable seperation so your meter will read better and be easily be recognize by readers of the workshop. hope you don't mine..

13 years 3 months ago

I'll be hitting my four lines soon.

"Kids" was necessary in the line of trochee to keep it from being catalectic (hanging a foot). So that's why I included it. The last syllable needs to end feminine (unstressed).
The slash seems the only tool I have. How do you make the vertical line? I can only do that with a lower case "L".
wesley

13 years 3 months ago

okay

Kids dangled on the end and I could fit it in. Now I see what you mean
Once u |pon a |time and | kids far |away,
(trochaic pentameter) how do this flow for you

As for the vertical line its on hour keyboard as. A symbol key. Many don't know its there. And its not easy to find butit is there.

13 years 3 months ago

"away"

is accented on the second syllable, so can't end a trochaic line. wesley

13 years 3 months ago

Eureka!

You're right. Way to go Beau. wesley... ||||||||||... weeeee!

13 years 3 months ago

geat little symbol

I didn't remember how or where to tell you where it was Stan. Thanks beau. I'm. Using my kindle fire these days ndi just there in the symbols

13 years 3 months ago

Beau

Lurking welcoming lol
Thanks for sharing.

13 years 2 months ago

Also remember the Advanced formatting Option

Which allows you to select stressed syllables and make them Bold by selecting text and hitting Ctrl B

I stress this, it is much easier than punctuation meter delineation.

13 years 2 months ago

thanks jess

I didn't understand how to use the advanced formatting. Now i know. I don't have that feature on my kindle fire. I agree bold stressed syllables is important.

13 years 3 months ago

Wesley and Stan

Thanks for completing the first step in this exercise.
The next step is to write a 4 four line stanza from one of the meters you used in your first exercise. Here we will show how easily meter flow musically. Having fun yet. I am lol

13 years 3 months ago

after posting 4 line stanza or all stanza

We will make sure all meters are as you want them
Then you can post to stream under the "working with meters in poetry" workshop.

13 years 3 months ago

Sing-song...

In times of stress, when I am a mess
I must confess, I do not think I am human
But when I look into your eyes
I find that I'm not ruined

Is this what you mean? ~ Gee

13 years 3 months ago

great free verse

So what meter do you want to work with?

S

13 years 3 months ago

here goes

The woodbine adorns its host with yellow
it's gay blossoms hide sinister intent
as it attempts to strangle the sapling
or at the least leave it twisted and bent

all are iambic pentameter I hope..........Which brings out a pet peeve of mine. Ever notice how seldom a strictly metered poem sounds or reads in a natural manner?

13 years 3 months ago

Stan

Yes it is hard I must say, but there are ways to make it less torturous.
with practice it becomes easier
This is perfect, the vertical lines between each feet makes them easier to count.
Then once you post it you'll know.

I usually vertical first line then mentally count the syllables in my head as I write. Sometimes the words flow perfectly as I write, even the rhymes come naturally.

The wood|bine a|dorns its|host with|yellow
it's gay|blossoms|hide sin|ister intent
as it|attempts|to stran|gle the|sapling
or at|the least|leave it|twisted|and bent

13 years 3 months ago

final stage

From this stanza you can add more stanzas, then work on each one individually to make sure its pentameter from beginning to end. Reading will be like singing a song at least for me it is. With reading other meter poem and writing in meter more you will find your ease.

S

13 years 3 months ago

hi

So next step is to expand this into a full poem? Does it all have to be pentameter?.............stan

13 years 3 months ago

I know you know what I think on that,

so I won't go on, but "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" comes to mind... as well as a bunch of others. I think there is nothing more beautiful than a well metered poem with elegant language. wesley

13 years 3 months ago

oh Wesley

Thanks
I am not so knowing lol
But lost as lost can be to your point
Never intentional;-)

13 years 3 months ago

Sorry Barbara.

My aim was off. I was commenting on Stan's comments about how metered poems often sound unnatural. wesley

S

13 years 3 months ago

hi Wes

I knew this was directed my way lol. There's meter and then there's meter. What really comes to mind for me is how seldom a sonnet (especially when I try one) almost always seems to have words inserted in order to fit into the meter required. But I realize I'm in the minority in my fondness for rhyming metered poetry which reads like normal conversation...............stan

13 years 2 months ago

I have a better way to describe what you're talking about Stan.

It's rather the difference between good poetry and bad. Inversions, extra words and the like when used to enhance the beauty of the poem is good. Using these things merely to force the meter or rhyme is bad. For example, I have for years been willing to eliminate various articles from my poetry in an attempt to maintain meter. It made for good flow and silly sounding sentences (call Jess... I think that was alliteration... was it pretty?). I am now trying hard to include the "natural" pieces of a sentence in my poetry and work the meter from there. Poetic license is against the law.
wesley

S

13 years 2 months ago

hi Wes

One of my worst tendencies is Yodaspeak. the barn there is......lol. I guess the stricter the form the harder it is to maintain a natural rhythm and any form which even restricts the number of words per line, such as a sonnet, is REALLY tough...........stan

13 years 2 months ago

you should try a villanelle.

You get to repeat two lines out of the first tercet all over the poem. It's a little like cheating. wesley

13 years 1 month ago

a pet peeve of mine stan,

is that if people learn how to use meter it does sound natural because it is! It is based on the natural stresses of spoken English. I've said over and over that slavish adherence is not the point, learning to use it is. Your poetry suffers from mis-stresses and worse, your suggestions for other peoples poetry frequently ignore the metric form they have chosen. This workshop has ended but there will be another one on meter soon. Attendance for you is compulsory. We have ways of making you parse. [evil smile] The wood/bine adorns/ its host/ with yellow [iamb/anapest/iamb/amphibrach
it's gay/ blossoms/ hide sin/ister/ intent [iamb/trochee/iamb/iamb/iamb]
as it/ attempts/ to strang/le the/ sapling [iamb/iamb/iamb/iamb/...trochee so near!]
or at/ the least/ leave it/ twisted/ and bent [iamb/iamb/trochee/trochee/iamb]

S

13 years 1 month ago

hi Jess

amphibranch??? Now we have amphibians getting involved? lol. I'll get parsing down one of these days, no need to issue threats . One of these days I'll write a perfect poem. I'll know it has happened when so many folks here who actually know what they're doing drop dead from shock lmao.................stan

13 years 1 month ago

awwww, you're no fun anymore!

I like issuing threats. Is it ok if they are gratuitous threats?

13 years 3 months ago

hi

Yes and yes
You can do. It need not be long. Only what's easy for you

S

13 years 3 months ago

Here goes

WOODBINE'S SCULPTURE

Woodbine decorates its host in yellow
but gay blossoms cover its true intent
as it attempts to choke the little tree
or at the least leave it twisted and bent

Young tree accomodates its tormenter
by bulging bark between the ropy vine
which tightens as the growing tree gains girth
by mere luck this tree's not soft skinned pine

This alder I spotted beside a road
on verge of dying as its leaves turned brown
I cut and freed it of its stranging foe
a helical staff I now carry around

So out of struggle and near death is made
a true support to help me walk rough glade

* I think this might even be a sonnet

13 years 3 months ago

Beautiful Stan

Thrn post to syresmShakespeare writes sonnets in iambic pentameters and this one is as good ad one of his
there were only a couple of lines that went beyond pentameter. If you don't mind I made them pentameter, but you can change to make it better for you then post to stream under working with meter in poetry.

WOODBINE'S SCULPTURE. By Scribbler (Stan)

Woodbine decorates its host in yellow
but gay blossoms cover its true intent
as it attempts to choke the little tree
or at the least leave it twisted and bent

Young tree accomodates its tormenter
by bulging bark between the ropy vine
which tightens as the growing tree gains girth
by mere luck this tree is not soft skinned pine

This alder I spotted beside a road
on verge of dying as its leaves turned brown
I cut relieving it of stranging foe
a helical staff I carry around

So taken out of struggle and near death
a true support to help me walk rough glade

* I think this might even be a sonnet

S

13 years 3 months ago

Hi Barb

on L-11 you are correct and I fixed it.But I believe lines 12 and 13 you might have miscounted lol..........stan PS this still doesn't sound like natural speach to me

13 years 3 months ago

Stan

I placed the vertical bar between the syllsbles to make counting the iambic easier.
there were only two thing I change very minor

Woodbine |deco|rates its |host in| yellow
but gay |blossoms| cover| its true| intent
as it |attempts |to choke| the lit|tle tree
or at |the least| leave it |twisted |and bent

Young tree |acco|modates |its tor|menter
by bul|ging bark |between |the ro|py vine
which tigh|tens as| the grow| ing tree| gains girth
by mere |luck this| tree is |not soft |skinned pine

This al|der I| spotted |beside |a road
on verge |of dy|ing as |its leaves |turned brown
I cut |and freed| it of |its strang|ling foe
a he|lical |staff I | carry |a round

So out |of strug|gle and |near death |is made
a true |support| to help |me walk| rough glade

* I think this might even be a sonnet

13 years 2 months ago

My first attempt at iambic meter

Barbara, this is probably ALL wrong. My sister has been in the hospital with pneumonia and I have been staying with her so I am late in posting, but here goes.
"softer THAN| a SIGH| the mist KISS/|ed my UP|turned FACE"
This is a line of poetry that I posted in another workshop (Working With Imagery) Like I said, I have been preoccupied lately.
I am not entirely sure that I understand the stressed/unstressed part. Please help me if you can. Somebody, anybody and I appreciate your help in advance!
Deb

13 years 2 months ago

great start Deb

Sorry to hear about your sister. I hope she is better or getting better.
I am glad to help.
SOF ter| THAN a| SIGH the| MIST kissed|MY up|TURNED face.
This has six iambs and twelve syllables. Thus, this is a
Hexameter trochaic. Your first syllable is stressed and your second is unstressed alternatinly.
add a second line with 6 trochaic and 12 syllables like the first line.

Now do your second line just likr

13 years 2 months ago

Thanks Barbara!

I had it all backwards or something, thanks for the help and thanks for your expression of kindness re: my sister. She is home now and on the mend. I will work on second line.
Deb

13 years 2 months ago

glad to hear that

Your sister is mending.

S

13 years 2 months ago

hi Debbie

Hope your sister is improving. Stressed is just another term for accented syllable which can as a last resort be determined with use of a dictionary................stan

13 years 2 months ago

Thanks for your help and for your concern

My sister is home and improving slowly, so I am still busy with helping her. I am just glad she is home. Thanks for the help and suggestion.
Deb

13 years 2 months ago

Second line

Here is what I came up with Barbara. Hope it is correct.
SOF|ter THAN a|SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up|TURNED face.
MORN has| COME and | THE east|ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn
Thanks, Deb

13 years 2 months ago

I've had an epiphany

It is impossible to teach meter online and it is all America's fault.
The basic issue is that the Yanks and the Rebels speak so very differently. The Southern accent is heavily influenced by French, a language that doesn't use stressed syllables, it uses long and short syllables, hence the "drawl". A subtle but important difference.

I have been really frustrated with every workshop I've run on Meter and got cranky, thinking everyone else is stupid. It is my way. Think of House MD. I was wrong. Unlike House MD.

The only way to work with meter is out loud, spoken,
to work with meter we need to speak our poems out loud, record them and post them on Youtube or somewhere similar, since we can't do it on Neopoet yet.

I am a genius. We do need to do this.

Consider this, all my poetry, apart from experiments, is freeform, but only because I learned structure first. I pay a personal penalty for running all these workshops on form, I am definitely not a "New Formalist". I believe in freeform but also believe in the infinite capabilities and potentials of language.

Lets work and try hard together. I'm back.

S

13 years 2 months ago

Harumph

Wouldn't be a problem if everybody else didn't speak with an accent instead of the proper English inflections evident in South Carolina dialect lmao.........This darn sure explains the differing places where stress is placed by so many of us. Only solution short of spoken word would be to look each word up in a dictionary to find the correct accented syllables. And this would homogenize the poetry to its detriment in my opinion..........stan

13 years 2 months ago

even worse problems surface

when it comes to rhyming
potato - potarto, tomato - tomarto
lol

13 years 2 months ago

actually my epiphany was a delusion

as is always the case with religious people, one must be careful.

We can all still work with meter in print as long as we are flexible.

And allowing for that flexibility it is such a powerful tool we can't ignore it.

This workshop is going good places, let's go further.

13 years 2 months ago

ok

now as for my contribution....
i have tried an anapaest - it isn't pentameter though
what do you think?

Capitalism
Truly now it has come to a poor sad affair
and I'm telling you this while I'm sat on a carton
I will tell you that life is so blasted unfair -
I thank god for my flagon of watered-down bourbon
And the reason I'm living this awful nightmare -
is my nasty bank manager has taken action
he is moving my furniture to who knows where
and he threatens to sell it, tomorrow at auction

do you want me to post this to stream for crit - or do you want us to stick with pentameter and tetrameter?
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

sorry - my enthusiasm gets away with me

i've jumped the gun haven't i - we're still on trochiac and iambic...
sorry - i just feel so comfortable with them...
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

lol - me again

i have a poem i have written in iambic pentameter- triolets
shall i post it for crit as my iambic poem
then am i to work on a trochee?

thanks barb
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

the problem is posting such a long poem for analysis

strictly speaking for 'parsing'. Look at how much work needs to be done Truly/ now it/ has come/ to a /poor sad/ affairjust that first line is mixed meter.Imagine the time it would take to parse the whole thing. I've disagreed with a lot of the parsing done in this workshop, and that's ok, it is not an exact science, especially considering Brits, Yanks, Rebels, African-Americans, Aussies and others. Nonetheless, if we work with very short pieces WITH INTENT we can be more exact and learn the feel of this powerful tool.

13 years 2 months ago

ok

so if i post the first verse?
thanks jess
xxx

but even though i see that it is still wrong
i say
TRU-ly/ NOW it/ has COME/ to a /POOR sad/ a-FFAIR
- ????

13 years 2 months ago

rather than post it in this thread,

post it as a poem for the workshop,
do you know how to do that?
Choose the workshop from the dropdown menu before you save.

13 years 2 months ago

i agree

Its why i believe posting the first four lined stanza here is better. Then we can better see where the poem is going how it should be developed.

13 years 2 months ago

you can

Post the first four lines of the first stanza here. That way I can anslyze it to see what it is you are working on. Then post the entire poem work shop.

13 years 2 months ago

Judy

Posting only the first four lines of the firsy stanza here is best for analyzing then post the entire poem to the workshop. Not to worry. Glad you are participating.

13 years 2 months ago

sorry barbara

i did what jess told me to do
and posted the first verse
but with editing it turned into dactyl tetrameter
lol

so i suggest we ignore it for now (i have had a really helpful review...)
until we get to there... as i realise i have really jumped the gun - lol sorry
in the meantime, i feel very comfortable with iambic and trochiac.... :)
what would you like me to do?
apart from reviewing, that is, i haven't seen any other than stan's - am i missing any?

love judy

13 years 2 months ago

tha tend to happen

Not a problem though. I just need to see where you are going. This is what I see with this

SOFter|THAN a|SIGH the|MIST kissed|MY up|TURNED face.
MORN has|COME and|THE east|TERN sky|BLOOD red|AT dawn.

I see hexameter trochaic. 6 trochee

13 years 2 months ago

hearing stressed snd unstressed meter

Is not easy. It takes lot of practice.

13 years 2 months ago

i get

SOF-ter | than a | SIGH the |MIST KISSED | my UP- | turned FACE.
MORN has | COME and | the EAST | tern SKY | BLOOD RED | at DAWN.

lol - it has to be accents .... surely ??
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

JUDY

Those lines sure look familiar...are you commenting on my work or giving a critique or responding to Jess' comment?
Deb

13 years 2 months ago

hi debra

i was answering barbara's comment
have you this poem up for the workshop?
sorry i must've missed it
i'll pop on over and see if i can find it...
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

hi judy

would you like to be moderator lol since you seem to be taking over lol. You obviously have better understanding of meter then me. A good thing and I appreciate your feedback and participation.

13 years 2 months ago

lol Barbara

I thought you were talking to me - i didn't see deb's lines up there
I’m sorry if I have upset you with my enthusiasm
you are a funny one – as we don’t even know which of us is closer to correct here…
it has been a discussion - no conclusion has been arrived at as far as I can see
I wouldn’t say I know more about meter than you, I know very little
I am just happy with iambic and trochiac – I get there eventually with a few mistakes on the way

are you asking me to rewrite how I would, or were you talking to deb ?? …

if it was me … well a rewrite would then make them say it in a subtly different manner that the author might not mean… and I can’t finish with either ‘dawn’ or ‘face’ as they are strong words
anyway, i’d say

SOFT - ly |SIGH – ing | MIST has |KISSED my |UP turned |FEAT -ures
MORN has | COME to | BLEED the |EAST -ern |SKY to | CRIM - son

cheers

13 years 2 months ago

you have not upset me

I like your enthuasium. I just wanted to know how you would write it. Sounds good. I think me and you differ in how words are used the, in, has, are words untressed words. Is that the case? I think the can be a stressed word. What you think,?

13 years 2 months ago

the, in, has ... can

i think some words can be seen as stressed or unstressed, dependent on where in the sentecce they are placed
i may be totally off there, but that's how it seems to me with those words

and i still say accent messes with any agreement on meter loo

love judy

S

13 years 2 months ago

hi

If everybody spoke unaccented English as we do in the south it would solve a lot of problems lmao

13 years 2 months ago

You figured it out

I posted those lines as assignment in this workshop...have not finished it so I have not posted to stream or workshop. It is hard to keep up with postings here lol I don't really know what to do next. Revise, repost, write another line...I guess I have a lot to figure out for myself!
Love~ Deb

13 years 2 months ago

Debra

Go ahead and add your next line. Its not ready for the stream yet.

13 years 2 months ago

hey Debra

Go ahead and add your third line

SOFter|THAN a|SIGH the|MIST kissed|MY up|TURNED face.
MORN has|COME and|THE east|TERN sky|BLOOD red|AT dawn.

I see hexameter trochaic. 6 trochee

13 years 2 months ago

hey Deb

Are you getting the feel of your two line here. I guess once me and Judy agree with where your lines should go from here. You can add a third lined lol

13 years 2 months ago

okay

How would you write it to say trochaic hexameter only.

13 years 2 months ago

this is two lines

Add another line and see if you can get the rhythm to flow just like the first two. It takes time, but once you get it you have fun with it like I do maybe. Lol.

13 years 2 months ago

sorry for late arrival back

Was having technical difficulty with my kindle its back to par now. Nice workshop discussion.

W

13 years 2 months ago

Dear Barbara

Please accept my lousy apology for not being to keeping up in this workshop. But I finally gave it a shot. I have composed these few lines (nothing significant. lol) attempting to create an Iambic piece.

Dreamy Water-melon :

In dreams, water-melon matter most
Better savor some after thirst
Trekking through sun baked desert
Ahead seeing mirage of Arab hosts
Barter water-melon for your shoes.

So, am I remotely close to understanding meter in poetry?

S

13 years 2 months ago

Hi Wondergolly

Meter is not as difficult as it appears. Iambic simply means that the stressed(or accented) syllables alternate with 1st syllable of each line being unaccented. then pentameter means there are 5 pairs of accented and unaccented syllables. trimeter=3 pairs, hexameter=6 and so forth. Keep in mind that te accented syllables vary with regional accents and is not an exact thing but the number of paired syllables is merely counting........stan

13 years 2 months ago

Wonder

Dreamy Water-melon :

In dreams,|wa ter|me lon|mat ter|most
Bet ter|sa vor|some af|ter thirst |
Trek king|through sun|baked des|sert
A head|see ing|mi rage|of A|rab hosts
Bar ter|wa ter|me lon|for your|shoes.

I this is to be iambic pentameter, it needs a little more to make five feet between the bars with two syllables per bar to make five iambics.

Glad to have you onboard.

13 years 2 months ago

Wonder

Not to worry. Glad you are onboard.

Dreamy Water-melon :

In dreams,|wa ter|me lon|mat ters|most ly
When it|bet ter|sa vors|some af|ter thirst
While trek|king through|the sun|baked des|sert sand
A head|see ing mi rage|of A|rab hosts
And bar|ter wa|ter me|lon for|your shoes.

If this is to be iambic pentameter, I added a few syllables to make the form work, you can edit and make it yours. Then you can developed the rest of the poem the same way.

Glad to have you onboard.

13 years 2 months ago

first line almost iambic

In DREAMS | WA - ter | MEL -on | MAT ter | MOST needs a 'ta'

but the next 2 begin trochaic, but again, stress is out
BET - ter | SA vor | SOME AFT | - er THIRST | one more foot (two syllables needed here )
TREK - king | THROUGH SUN - | baked DES - ert (as long as sun and baked are joined with a hyphen, else it would be two stressed words imo ....) - also needs another foot

and then almost iambic again
a - HEAD | SEE - ing | MI - rage | of A - | |rab HOSTS

then an almost perfect trochiac
BAR - ter | WAT - er | MEL - lon | FOR your | SHOES. needs a 'ta'

lol (smiling) as spokem by an australian :)

hope this is helpful
love judy

13 years 2 months ago

its helpful

Australian and American could come together to make this workshop a success.

13 years 2 months ago

third line

SOFter| THAN a|SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up|TURNED face.
MORN has| COME and | THE east|ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn
THE clouds| REFLECTION of| THE sun| A sure| FORECAST of| RAIN today.

I don't know if it works or not, what with everyones comments re; accents...for what it is worth, I was born and raised in far northern Indiana but have spent my entire adult life in far eastern Kentucky. Everyone in Indiana always comments on my delightful "southern" accent and in Kentucky they note my "northern" accent...Thus I call myself a Hoobilly! LOL! So how does this "accent" reflect on meter in poetry?
Love~ Deb

13 years 2 months ago

Deb

I'm not sure where, but here in SC all my life, my accent is so different most ask where I got it lol.
In poetry with meter I figure its where the stress or low and high pitches fall in a poem. For ex.
sof TER than A COW'S. hi NY---- low high low high high low high
Sof TER than A ba BY'S hi NY-----low high low high low high low high and vice- versa

With meter in poetry it is best to stick with one form. third line
therefore I exited your third line to br give iambic instead of the seven you have. I hop this helps you. With your forth and last line in the stanza.

SOFter| THAN a|SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up|TURNED face.
MORN has| COME and | THE east|ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn
THE clouds| RE flect|THE sun| A sure| FORE cast|OF rain.

13 years 2 months ago

Thanks Barbara!

I know I am not fully comprehending the ghist of the lesson plan. I will go back and re read everything from the syllabus and try to get a fourth line. Thanks for the help in revision, I can see now that I had too many syllables to maintain the hexameter...don't give up on me, some of this has to sink eventually with repetition!
Love~ Deb

13 years 2 months ago

Debra

Not to worry I have several websites for that purpose because it is hard yo sink it all in. I researched a Loy on these sites before I propose this workshop so participants can easily to the main points
Im not giving up on you this workshop is for beginners and it can last as long as necessary to help aid any who want to use itv

S

13 years 2 months ago

Hi Deb

I thought we were still on iambic lol The 1st 2 lines start out as trochaic to me (I checked dictionary to be sure about softer). The 3rd line I believe however is iambic. Now I'm far fron an expert at parsing but I think the paring takes place syllable by syllable and you've used some multisyllable words as a single sound byte. Barb has shown how they should be divided but I still think the natural form of 3rd line is iambic lol. You Did do a good job of maintaining hexameter meter though which gives me fits. Accent should have little affect on the number od feet in a line but it can have a greater affect on how things are accented or stressed. Now for what Really matters lmao. I liked the visuals and tactile images here.........stan

13 years 2 months ago

Stan,

You have to remember that I have absolutely no idea what I am doing...lol! I am just stringing words together and praying that I am doing it right, obviously I am not, but hopefully I will eventually learn which is why I joined in this workshop...some of this will have to sink into this thick skull of mine, right? One can only hope. ;-)
Thanks~Deb

S

13 years 2 months ago

Hi Debbie

What you are doing right now is trochaic. The difference between trochaic and iambic is simple. In trochaic the first syllable of each line is accented.(or stressed). In iambic the second syllable is accented and the first is not accented. When in doubt about what is accented you can do as I do and consult a dictionary. Now there's a lot more to iambic and trochaic than this but this will allow for a quick check as to which type a particular line is.......stan PS Don't get discouraged. If even I can begin to understand this stuff, anybody can

13 years 2 months ago

Fourth line

SOFter| THAN a |SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up |TURNED face.
MORN has| COME and | THE east |ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn
THE clouds | Reflect | THE sun| A sure| FOREcast| OF rain.
BUT for| RIGHT now| I will| SIMPLY try| TO enjoy| THIS day
Love~ Deb

13 years 2 months ago

fourth line

Sounds good works wells
BUT for| RIGHT now| I will| SIM ply|EN joy|THIS day

13 years 2 months ago

Better? Use dictionary!

Trochaic
SOFTer| THAN a |SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up |TURNED face. 6 feet
MORN has| COME and | THE east |ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn 6 feet
THE clouds | REflect | THE sun| A sure| FOREcast| OF rain. 6 feet
BUT for| RIGHT now| I will| SIMply| ENnjoy| THIS day 6 feet

Iambic
Softly AS| a SIGH | the MIST | has KISSED| my UP| lifted FACE 6 feet
The MORN | has COME| the EAST|ern SKY| blood RED| at DAWN 6 feet
The CLOUDS| reFLECT |the RISE |of SUN,| it WILL| rain TODAY 6 feet
As FOR | this MOMENT| in TIME, | I JUST| enJOY | the DAY 6 feet
I made changes from trochaic to iambic... I hope to show that I know the difference, but as usual I am unsure...lol Maybe if I keep plugging away at it I will learn. Again one can only hope.
Love & many thanks to all, Deb

13 years 2 months ago

Debra

Hope this helps
With iambic all caps come first then lower case
For trochee lowercase come first then all caps

Iambic

A mist| SOFT as| A sigh| HAS kissed| MY up|LIFTED face. 6 feet

THE morn| HAS come| THE eas|TERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn. 6 feet

The CLOUDS|re FLECT |THE sun| RISE it |WILL rain |TO day. 6 feet

AS for|THIS mo|MENT in|TIME i|EN joy| the DAY. 6 feet

13 years 2 months ago

Be careful here folks,

putting the syllable in caps does not necessarily make it a stressed syllable.

As Stan has suggested, when in doubt refer to a dictionary, the phonetic spelling indicates the stressed syllable. When it is two single syllable words, the noun or verb is more likely to be stressed than an article like 'a' or 'the'.

S

13 years 2 months ago

This

Brings me to a subject seldom discussed....."poetic voice". It seems we're all guilty of accenting syllables in the manner we want in order to make them fit the rhythm we are trying for. When we do this the result is more like a song than poetry in my opinion. I think this is why parsing is so difficult for most people including me.......stan

13 years 2 months ago

i agree on both counts Stan and Jess

For iambic make all begining syllables all caps
and for trochee all behinning syllables lolwercase

Then like Stan said search the dictionary for the stress and unstress words you want to use
this can be use a technique to get a visualization I believe
Poetic voice is like singing to me and can be conversational and be storytelling even dramatic (not my fav one)

S

13 years 2 months ago

Oh

So you're using caps to signify unstressed. I had it bass akward lol...........stan

13 years 2 months ago

Kinda sorta

I might have it confuse, but
what I mean is since all caps signify shouting here I use it to signify stressed and since lowercase can signify mild speech here I use it to signify unstressed
Confusing I'm sure, but it makes sense in my alien brain.
Its how I understand complicated stuff. I create learning techniques to help me learn something since I can't follow or remember like most do.
After going going back to college at age 44 I realize I only make sense to me.

I'm like a alien among mankind nobody knows what to do with me. Lol.

fter

13 years 2 months ago

That is ass-backwards, Barbara,

use the dictionary and sound of the words to write iambic or whatever meter then put stressed syllables in caps to show the meter.

Stan's point about music is spot on.

13 years 2 months ago

backward i know

I try, but I get a block
Then I do what's there which is often backward lol
The dictionary is good. for this it'll take some brain power which at the moment I'm losing the battle.

S

13 years 2 months ago

But......

Don't Iambic writes begin with unstressed syllables? See your comment above dated 4-12..........stan

13 years 2 months ago

Oh okay

It starts with with unstressed
Now I'm straight this poem is trochee lol
Confusing :) gotta keep it straight.

13 years 2 months ago

thanks Stan

For helping me keep it straight

13 years 2 months ago

Barbara,

I think you said it backward, but you have been doing it the way you finally describe. I much prefer the advanced formatting, but since it is not available in PM's (which is where I communicate as a mentor) I need the other version also. Caps for stress, low for unstress.
And I didn't move fast enough to make the comment, so I'll just agree. "Articles" are never stressed.
And Debra, in your initial iambic form a stress decision came up between "mist/kissed". As these two words together form a type of "identical rhyme" (a matching of the sound of the consonant as well as the vowel, though not a repetition of the same word- "praise/prays") it made it difficult for me to have one or the other fall into a natural stress.
The chief problem I saw in the iambic version is a use of multi syllable words (softly, lifted) as half of a two syllable foot.
wesley

13 years 2 months ago

thanks Wesley

I do confuse myself lol
Glad I finally articulated so you all can see where I try to go.
You all help is a blessing

13 years 2 months ago

Just want to say again,

it is much quicker and easier to use Advanced formatting to parse meter.

First select Advanced formatting (it must be first, if you type or paste the comment or poem first you lose formatting and get double spacing when you convert to Advanced formatting)

Then type or paste in the lines. Select the syllable to make bold, hold the Ctrl key and press B. Put a / between feet. Repeat.

Note, if you parse the verse in Word and copy it in it should retain formatting.

Once up/on a /time and /far a/way, kids (trochaic pentameter)

there lived /a band /of po/ets coun/ting toes. (iambic pentameter)

Nobody/ knows how much/ time they spent, (dactylic trimeter)

Unretur/ning is time /with one's toe/ses and feet. (anapestic tetrameter)

(Wesley's examples)

13 years 2 months ago

advance formattiing

I tried several times but simply couldn't get. lol I on a kindle fire and it don't have tthose features.

13 years 2 months ago

when are you going to get a real computer?

You know you really need one, you've been limited by gadgets for too long.

Sorry I haven't been more supportive of this workshop. 2 reasons, one I am still having difficulty concentrating after my illness and two, after several meter workshops I became allergic to parsing [grins] its no fun any more and you all probably learn better by school of hard knocks.

13 years 2 months ago

A note to Debra,

as both Wesley and I said, articles (a, an, the) are never stressed.

13 years 2 months ago

i wondered about that

Thanks for that
learning is fun when you are enlighten
I have a real computer, but my limited ability to function makes it easier to use this gadget.

S

13 years 2 months ago

articles

So as far as rhythm is concerned are articles ignored in writing if they fall in a place where a stressed syllable should go?.............stan

13 years 2 months ago

no, they are just un-stressed syllables

but that is not a strict rule, syllables can be so unstressed as to be ignored

13 years 2 months ago

My question also?

Same as Stan's, are articles ignored if they fall in a foot where a stressed syllable shoud go? And if so how would it change these verses?
Trochaic
SOFTer| THAN a |SIGH the| MIST kissed| MY up |TURNED face. 6 feet
MORN has| COME and | THE east |ERN sky| BLOOD red| AT dawn 6 feet
THE clouds | REflect | THE sun| A sure| FOREcast| OF rain. 6 feet
BUT for| RIGHT now| I will| SIMply| ENnjoy| THIS day 6 feet
OR would it be more like this?
SOFTER than a| SIGH the| MIST kissed my|UPTURNED face. Cause this is confusing me to no end!!!
Iambic
Softly AS| a SIGH | the MIST | has KISSED| my UP| lifted FACE 6 feet
The MORN | has COME| the EAST|ern SKY| blood RED| at DAWN 6 feet
The CLOUDS| reFLECT |the RISE |of SUN,| it WILL| rain TODAY 6 feet
As FOR | this MOMENT| in TIME, | I JUST| enJOY | the DAY 6 feet

Just curious! Deb

13 years 2 months ago

The simple answer is

that meter is based on the natural stresses of spoken english, not on the metric form of the poem. In fact that is the strict answer. Although stresses vary slightly with accent (British say cigarette, American often say cigarette) by far and large the stresses are the same across accents.

It's not about how we parse it for meter, it's about how it is spoken aloud in normal speech. One of the best ways to learn the 'ear' for meter is to read poetry written in a certain meter and hear how natural it sounds.

Whenever you parse a line you should also have the line un-parsed first, listen to the sound of the language.

13 years 2 months ago

Jess

CIG/arette is easier for me being American
I need to get American down

13 years 2 months ago

Here's another way of looking at it and

'hearing' stressed syllables When we say-The language is the same, only the emphasis is differentthe stresses naturally occur asThe LANguage IS the SAME, ONly the EMphasis is DIFFerentif we pronounce it asThe lanGUAGE is THE same, onLY the emPHASis is diffERentit sounds utterly bizarre.

To view it differently-
the stresses naturally occur as
the language is the same, only the emphasis is different

if we pronounce it as
the language is the same, only the emphasis is different

well, that's what it is all about, not how to make metric patterns in poetry, but to learn the metric sounds of our language to use it effectively.

13 years 2 months ago

hey Jess

Great idea language is the difference
hey guys here is a suggestion that might make this work more effective.

Post your iambic or trochaic stanza as a poem to the workshop, not in the thread, four lines of iambic pentameter and five lines of trochaic tetrameter, rhyming optional.

Do you think this will help the workshop effectiveness